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Me. I look for experience.OJT is one of the best learning tools. Don't get me wrong.Certification is very,very important.

Both can get you and anyone else hurt or heaven for bid,killed.   I know some that have just the cert. And I don't want them near the secne.Others with exp.can also be just as dangrious. But in general.experience.

Certification is necessary.  But I feel  that experience is better.  I took my class 2 summers ago and a few that I took it with have the paper but not the know how to use the tools.  I think that is where more in house training comes into play and not just simple training but put some pressure on it so that it feels a bit more real

Ditto to all. There are too many "Masters" out there with all sorts of cert's, but no hands on. Both is ideal, but in the days of old school, there were very few certs to be had, and all the needed knowledge came from experience, and was a standard part of being a FF. You proved your knowledge with experience, shown on calls. Not with a piece of paper.  Having both are preferred now.

I agree with the others experience over certification.

i would have to agree that experience definately comes over certification....but i still believe in getting the certification because thats what starts your learning process then you take it back to your department and grow and teach from that.  I  personaly would rtather have the few ppl that came up under the wing of me and a few others that have learned from us and grew with us rather than someone fresh out of a class that thinks they know what there doin because that is how the instructors told them.

Ravenfirefighter says ...

Let me offer this for the sake of discussion...

How many times have you been on a call and someone does something that doesn't follow protocols/SOPs/SOGs and gives the excuse that that the way we have always done it and we have done it that way for years.  

Certification should be granted only after the Firefighter has demonstrated the Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities required to be on the Operations or Technician level.

Experience is important, but it must be tempered with Certification and Training!  I personally don't want anyone on the accident scene that doesn't have all three. 

Agreed !!!

I completely agree Raven. However, there are a lot of instructors who just push to get students through and they are not trained as well as should be. I think training and experience are a must. Certification is nice, but I don't think you will find in a lot of departments, the "older" guys / gals wanting to go back and take these classes. Especially if they've been in for 20 years ect.

Justoneguy says ...

I want to add this to the discussion.  In many states across the country, certifications are being required to even run on apparatus.  Now I do not agree with that because many of us are volunteer firefighters.  So I ask you this.  If experience is better than certification in the long run, will you lose fire fighters who can not make the time to get more of these certifications. 

I am all about getting more certifications under my belt, but the bottom line is, some states and local fire companies require these certifications before you can run most fire calls. 

 

So will that push more volunteers out of thise service or will what?  Do tell, please. 

I agree with almost all that I've read here. However, not having time to go to classes or training says something completely different to me. I want someone with the certification and the experience. Someone missing either is a trainee.

Not having the certification would be like having a doctor who was really good with people and had hung around the hospital long enough to get the basic idea. But, had just never had the time to go to medical school.

If you don't take at least a little time to attend classes, your knowledge becomes outdated. Then, you become a liability.

We are an all volunteer department. We overcame the obstacle by sending the few people who were willing to the instructor courses. Now we have the classes in the county....sometimes even on meeting nights.

I think you should be certified but expierence is critical in extrication. b/c every mva is different and you never know what you will have until you get on scene and the only way to be ready is to have seen a wide variety of mva's

OK, here's another take on it.

Since we are talking about extrication, I'll use that one. We require our extrication certificates to be no more than five years old. After that you either attend a class or don't play. I have attended extrication class many times over that last __ years. I learn something new every time. To me, a 15 year old certificate doesn't carry much weight unless other stuff comes along with it.

Vehicle design changes every 6 months!

I attend an advanced auto-extrication class every 6 months, either as a Student or as an Instructor.  It is my responsibility to keep myself and my Fire/Rescue Department members as safe as possible.  After any one of us attends a Auto-Extrication Class, we have a refresher for the rest of the department personnel.

Knowledge is power and keeps us safe!

hallberg630 says ...

i really dont see the need in retaking a complete class  every 5 years....maybe a refresher...but even for me i love to take classes as often and as many as i can but for every 5 years to have to take a 48 hr class thats gonna get old....and to be completely honest i dont know how many on here are from PA but DOH has completely screwed that class... i took mine right when they came out with the new DOH standards like 3 or 4 years ago and we had to sit down after every test and debate the questions becasue they were so screwed up....I think the one tried saying that knowing the number and types of vehicles was irrelevent...im sorry but that is something i wanna know...2 vehicle accident could be anything...know if they say two vehicle accident one being a tractor trailer and the other a school bus at 3pm on a tuesday afternoon your responding completely differently! sorry had to vent about the wonderful state tests

Our crash victim extrication is a 16 hour class. Bus extrication is another 16 hour class. Not rocket science, but time well spent. Worth doing every 5 years. We also do in-house training periodically as well. Attending an advanced rescue class every six months sounds like a good idea too.

I have read all of the comments and can not agree with all of you more OJT is the best. However, before one starts to training on anything someone most have an idea what to do, so that is where a formal class comes in. If one successfully completes a class and is given a certificate that does not make them certified until they show competency in the task. Just remember most federal and state regulation state that their agency shall certify and qualify their personnel. This is accomplished by repetitive training and incidents. This does take more time then people think. Once you are certified then you should be qualifying over a time frame or number of incidents and training courses. Their also would be competency training on a yearly basis to stay certified and qualified.

If you are going to make a career of emergency response, volunteer or paid than all these need to be considered. Certification, Qualification and experience make the best combination of a great emergency responder.

George Cronon
Retired Paid Fire Fighter
Volunteer Fire Fighter
Senior Training Coordinator

Think about this...EMT's and Medics need to Re-cert every 3 years.  To challenge this re-cert they need to first take a test, and the test is graded in sections, ie Bleeding control, fracture management, airway, etc etc.  If they fail any section, they need to go to those corresponding classes again and re take them.  Maybe this is the way the fire service needs to address its training problems with every class?  Refresh every 3 years with the challenge option?  Cause if you pass the challenge test without failing any section all you need to do is take the state practical and written test with the rest of the class.  Maybe the fire service should catch up to the EMS???  Because I just do not think its COOL to take a basic firefighter class and think you are good to go for the rest of your life...ITS DANGEROUS.  Things change every year, and we should be refreshing this stuff AT LEAST every 3 years to start.

I feel that in order to get experience you need both certification and OTJ training, without either of those you have NO experience.  Training certs are only the first level of your training and shouldnt be used as gospel...now you need to take that training to the streets with experienced firefighters and turn it into experience.

Okay, Certification is in some area's is a must.    Hands on is the tool of the trade.  But, Lets not forget training.  Training is the best possible solution to get experience and HANDS ON.  You can learn the methods that truely work without the pressure of a life at risk.  Get out there and hook those tools up to the unit and start cutting as many old cars as you can.  Learn how long you can handle the equipment before needing to hand it over to one of your crew.  Or, keep on working and see the mistakes you make by not handing over the spreader.  The safest and best method  for Certification vs. Experience is     (training)          actually the Happy medium...........Lots of good hard training.